And because he fufilled the law, so are we supposed to follow the law, for no unclean thing can enter into Heaven.

So, you are saying that God is loving, and He created us to worship Him for all eternity, and if we don't He will torture us for all eternity? I fail to see the love.

God gave man instructions on how to live, then let them choose a different way, then decided to kill them for it... Presumably they are still being tortured in Hell. Again, how is this loving?

And you say God created Lucifer to tempt us because "there must be opposition in all things," yet again this doesn't seem loving. Why would God stack the deck against people knowing that the ones who Lucifer fools will be tortured forever in Hell? And for believers, Lucifer has free reign to torture us here on Earth... So either way Lucifer wins, and Jesus only wins a small percentage of the time? Can't faith be proven in another way? How is this loving?

You say that most Christian churches are corrupt, which really begs the question: who is more powerful? Yet you say the correct answer is to "accept the Gift" Jesus gave us... What does that even mean? Do you just say thank you and you're out of Hell?

If I were to treat my children the way you say God treats us, people would rightly call me a monster, and lock me up. Maybe even execute me. Yet for you this seems loving?

看下我今天的菜单！

We are created beings. There is no meaningful existence without God and there is no meaningful existence with him unless we are allowed to choose. Lucifer is also a created bring who made his choice already and now works against us and God allows it because it’s how we make the choice. Hell isnt a punishment it’s the result of your own choices.

We are all made clean in Christ. By his grace and our faith. He satisfied the law for us.

I had an epiphany one day and this was the result. Like a mental fog lifted and it suddenly became clear what the Grace of God really means and that I’m saved as a sinner simply by faith. I had to organize my thoughts and write it down. Here they are for what they are worth to you may be insignificant but truly a revelation to myself.

For years growing up in a church requiring performance of specific rituals and traditions being indoctrinated into believing that I had to strive to be perfect to go to Heaven, And only after all that work that God could still choose to revoke his promise that my faith in him is all I need; the Law of Faith; And the indoctrination that the only way to Heaven is if I’ve confessed and repented of all my sins and that I must partake of a sacrament on a regular basis. This often was very disheartening because I knew I wasn’t perfect and I know I’ll always be a sinner no matter how hard I try.

Christ made a promise to wipe away the records of our sins, all of them, by professing our faith in him. Period. Plain and Simple.

Living, A life of Constant regret and unwilling confessions and making the same human mistakes and being told I wasn’t repenting properly if I repeated the sin. It really ruins the faith, and creates mass arrogance and hypocrites in the congregation made up of People acting perfect all the time and wondering what’s wrong with me? Trying to be honest but can’t help myself from a drink or a smoke once and a while.

These faux Traditions are designed take away from Christ’s message of being saved by his grace. These faux traditions are telling us to put salvation into our own hands by our own power or in the hands or worse that I could do everyone I can do and still be rejected; ruins the faith in him.

I’m saved as a sinner.... admitting I’m a sinner and simply accepting his gift, worshiping him; glorifying him. In this fashion it will be impossible to lose faith in Christ. And now I want to do for him the things I felt forced to do before.

And it’s important to note that, the saved are saved but how will we be judged? This is the Epiphany. By our Good works. Our rewards in the afterlife are separate from salvation but should not be boasted about. Be humble and have charity in your heart was also a message from Jesus Christ.

And now I want to do for him the things I felt forced to do before. The spirit guides me now, whereas Before, I was often second guessing myself. Now I live by the spirit and look for confirmation of Epiphanies that come more often now as I grow in understanding of our purpose and mission in this life. To Love God and our Neighbors. How we do that is a personal matter but we cannot work our way into heaven without believing in him and the sacrifice he made for us. But we can gain the rewards in heaven that living a charitable life will bring us.

If there is no meaningful existence without God, then what is hell, in your opinion?

Are you saying that we couldn't make any choices without Lucifer?

Okay, so if I let my kid walk into moving traffic, even though I could stop him, then it's okay because it's his choice? Hell is absolutely punishment, as you describe it, because God keeps people alive forever when He doesn't have to. That makes it His choice to continue the torture, so if it's not punishment then it's just a psychopath torturing lesser beings. Would you stand by and watch your kid torture the dog for hours because it pissed in the house? How about days? Years? Decades?

I don’t mean to sound arrogant but you’re missing one crucial point. God is not a created being and he is not our father in the sense that you describe.

Our children can exist without us but since we all are created beings, we cannot have any meaningful existence without God beyond this world. Again, He is not our father he is our creator. He doesn’t need us, we need him for that simple fact.

Sure, we can make choices without Lucifer, but he serves the purpose of purifying the faithful in this life and provides fame wealth and power to those that follow him, for the same purpose. To also provide opposition in this life.

So why did Jesus consistently call Him the "Father?" Is there ANY meaning that we can get from that?

Even if we throw that out, your description of God is monstrous.

Again, how is there existence in Hell without God?

The Trinity is God The Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. All three have no beginning and no end. He is our father too just not in the sense that you’re describing.

Plenty of the Host of Heaven followed Lucifer, I suppose because they agree with your thinking; that God’s plan is abhorrant. But they will be on the wrong side of history and you too if you think you can exist (have eternal joy) without the deity of God. You can believe you’re good and follow moral rules as best you can while creating no victims.... because.... morality; but you’re judging things on mortal standards.

Our souls are eternal, God created them but he’s not a respector of persons and he doesn’t want slaves.

I know that to follow him or go to hell isn’t much of a choice but he’s weeding out the tares and that’s what sinners are, tares to be discarded at the harvest.

Admit you’re a sinner, have faith in Christ that he will wipe our slates clean and be accepted by God I To heaven. Otherwise be a tare and be discarded to hell because no unclean thing can enter into heaven.

Where does the bible teach that souls are immortal without the Gift of God?

Don't assume too much about me, you don't know me, and you aren't God.

So you think saying some magic words gets you into heaven?

I’m not God and I don’t want to be God. But luciferians want to replace God with Lucifer.

Humanists want to replace God with Humanism.

Souls are eternal. I’m not going to quote scripture because it’s obvious about eternal torment of souls in Hell.

The words are only magic if you believe what you’re saying and have faith. Otherwise they’re lies.

Don’t lie to God. Smh.

So tell me about yourself then. I’m Obviously Christian Born Again and if you’ve read any of my other recent writing I’m a recent convert to Libertarianism except where God is concerned. What about you?

I was raised Catholic mostly, semi Protestant. Never really fit in with either. Libertarian-ish bordering on anarchist. I'm sure that's how I found your blog, but I can't remember specifically.

As for faith, I'm not sure where I stand right now. I'm having a hard time with faith because I don't actually see anyone that lives like Christ said His disciples would live, and I'm in the buckle of the Bible belt. Everyone I encounter on the Internet claiming to be Christian focuses all their time tearing other people down, and threatening people with torture, something I don't see Jesus doing in the Bible. I also don't see any evidence of the Apostles threatening people with torture if they don't convert in the New Testament.

It's a problem, because if people are claiming to be Christian, but they don't act like it, then by Jesus' own standard they aren't. It doesn't matter if they said some magic words, even if they meant it. Where is that in the Bible, anyway?

If there aren't any real followers of Jesus, and I can't find them, then how can a person know there is anything there? Jesus taught a lot of things in His life, almost none of which are ever talked about in churches, blogged about on Christian blogs, or discussed in Christian forums.

I also think that there is a misplaced emphasis on God as angry, vengeful, and wrathful. Jesus didn't talk about God like that. The main metaphor He used was God as a Father, but when you point out to "Christians" that a father would never act the way they say God does they just explain it away like it's of no import. Like you just did. How is the metaphor meaningful at all? In what way is God like a father if He intends to torture most of humanity for eternity? How does that square with the father in the parable of the prodigal son?

I think it doesn't at all. I think that the God who tortures is not a good God, and not worthy of praise. If that's God, then I think there is no God at all, and Jesus was just some crazy preacher who managed to pull off one of history's greatest tricks.

You really should look into what the bible teaches about the immortality of the soul. You say it's obvious, but it's NOT in the Bible. There are a couple of verses in Revelation, which everyone knows is not literal because the whole thing is a retelling of a prophetic vision, and you have a parable Jesus told, which is at least arguably not literal. The vast majority of scripture teaches the exact opposite, hundreds of times.

Just two: John 3:16, Romans 6:23. Both clearly say that eternal life is a gift of God, and both indicate not everyone receives the gift.

If God doesn’t allow us to be punished for committing crimes against our neighbors and against him, he would not be a Just God. If he didn’t provide a savior he wouldn’t be a merciful God. If he didn’t give us a choice we wouldn’t even be sentient.

I use to struggle with the same issues of hypocrites until I realized I will always be a sinner and so will they. How we act after being saved will be punished in this life if bad or glorified higher in heaven for charity; but all who accept his gift will be saved.

You’re still questioning the need to be saved at all? The Bible says that no man ever can fullfill the requirements of the old law. He instituted the new law of faith. Christ’s gift is the only way back to God.

Accepting the Holy Spirit into my life has been a huge blessing And now I want to do for him the things I felt forced to do before when struggling with Hypocrites. The spirit guides me now, whereas Before, I was often second guessing myself. Now I live by the spirit and look for confirmation of Epiphanies that come more often now as I grow in understanding of our purpose and mission in this life. To Love God and our Neighbors. How we do that is a personal matter but we cannot work our way into heaven without believing in him and the sacrifice he made for us. But we can gain the rewards in heaven that living a charitable life will bring us.

Copied from my blog entry on repentance.
Refer to Hebrews 12:4-12 concerning believers being scourged and our faith proven by going through the pain and tribulations in this life that sin causes.

People who think they can be saved by living perfect lives will never understand this and never believe it and maybe never experience any tribulations and in the end will go to hell for lack of faith and for the sins they thought weren’t thaaaat bad.

In closing, constantly pleading for forgiveness means you have no faith in him or his gift. His gift is contingent solely on our faith and fealty. Faith frees us from sin - it’s true Freedom.
First Believe in Christ then Worry about being scourged for your sins in this life, not whether your apologies are good enough; they aren’t and aren’t necessary.

I feel like I'm talking to myself from five years ago.... I guess that's why I feel a little triggered right now. The whole "being led by the Holy Spirit" idea sounds nice, but when different "christians" feel led by the HS to preach contradictory narratives it becomes hard to reconcile. Who is correct? What way of reading the bible is correct? If the HS doesn't answer when you ask for guidance, what do you do then?

Another problem is that people, and you and I seem to be them, often say, "the bible says..." and then follow with their own interpretation of what the bible says. It isn't so clear what you say about the commandments, and that should be evident by the huge numbers of "Christians" who read the same bible as you and say "the bible says..." followed by "we must obey the Law of God." Really, it's not hard to find.

I understand that the church is full of people, and that people are imperfect, but that shouldn't preclude the church from being loving towards each other, if not towards everyone. Jesus said that His followers would be know by their love... Who in the world describes Christians as loving? If you stand from the outside and look objectively, it seems to me that Christians are only loving towards people who share their exact same beliefs, and when there is a disagreement the hate comes out pretty quick.

For the record, I "accepted the Holy Spirit in my life" over thirty years ago, and there have been good times and bad since. Looking back, I can't really distinguish the things I thought were from the HS from things that other people worked out just fine without Him. It doesn't seem to me that "Christians" are especially blessed any more than non-christians. It doesn't seem to effect their behavior all that much, and it doesn't seem to free them from sin.

You say I question the need to be saved at all? No, you mistake me. I'm question the power of your religion to save. I thought for years it did. Argued vociferously that it did, even very recently. If asked about it, I'd probably still give the party line, but I have some real doubts. Mostly, I fail to see the power, love, grace, or mercy the Bible says is there.

As for punishment, I understand it's hard to let go of the desire for a pound of flesh. It makes us feel good to know the "bad" people are going to get what they have coming. But how is death not a punishment? Isn't death the exact punishment promised all throughout the Bible, from Genesis through Revelation? Isn't death what Jesus said will happen to those who don't believe in Him? Didn't Paul say the "wages of sin is Death?" Why this need for eternal torture? Is it just?

If we are made in the image of God, and I think the bible is pretty clear on that, then shouldn't we expect our sense of justice to derive from Him? I've heard that exact argument used by countless Christian apologists to "prove" His existence, yet when it comes to Justice we somehow think it's okay for God to behave in ways that we would consider completely unjust if a person were to do it.

If someone is guilty of murder, what is a just punishment? Is fifty years in a torture chamber good enough? I think that's barbaric, and so do most people. Death is the punishment God prescribed for the Israelites who took a life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life. It seems pretty clear that God is instructing them on Justice. Why didn't He tell them to torture the murderer for some time before execution?

Now, you have God not only executing the sinner, but then He resurrect them for the sole purpose of torturing them endlessly. How is that just? Where in the Bible is that idea? I guess you can get it from Revelation, when Satan and his minions are cast into the lake of fire to be tormented forever, but at best you have the worst of the worst suffering endlessly. Your explanation of Hell puts people there for eternal torture who lived their entire life in a place where the gospel was never preached. Or people who were so harmed by "Christians" that they were unable to respond to the gospel. Or people who just never gave religion or God much thought, but were otherwise decent people.

Do people deserve death for stealing? How about lying? Or coveting? Do people deserve to be tortured forever for the same? Think about that for a while... Why would you say it is Just for God to behave that way when it wouldn't be just for one of us to?

To me, this is one of the problems with the whole ball of wax. How is it that "Christians" are loving if most of them openly hold out hope that most of the people in the world will be tortured forever? If they truly believed that, what in the world is more important than trying to stop it from happening? I mean, seriously, why wast time on a blog, job, skiing, or reading a book? Someone might suffer eternal torture because of your tendency to procrastinate... Either Christians don't really believe it, or they aren't loving. If they aren't loving, according to Jesus they aren't His followers.

You say you're Libertarian, can I ask why? I'd like to know, but for now here's why I am. I don't think it is morally acceptable to force people to act the way you want them to, either directly or through coercion. In fact, it was through reading the gospels that I came to that conclusion because it seems to me that Jesus refused to use coercion or violence even when people were ready to make Him king. He didn't act like that because it was wrong. It is still wrong. Why would you think God would act like that?

I feel like this reply should have been directed to the other commentator. I'm not arguing salvation by works. I'm discussing the justice of Eternal torture, and the nature of God.

However, I would like to ask you what your definition of faith is, in your own words. I feel like you have a different understanding of it than I do.

Also, you seem to want to cut out the sections of the Gospels that deal with all that Jesus said and did during His ministry. Would it have been sufficient for Him to be born, go straight to the cross, resurrection, then ascension without any of the teachings?

Thank you for the discussion and FYI I have thought about pretty much everything you’ve mentioned and have had the same reservations.

We all don’t and probably can’t have the Same love for our unsaved neighbors as Jesus during his ministry did. But I’m forgiven for that. I think Paul wrote a few letters calling some of the churches out for not being as proactive about spreading the gospel as they should have been. It’s important to spread the love not the hate. All the reasons you mentioned kept me away from Christ.

I’ve come to Christ because of the prophesies in revelations; suddenly seeing the possibility of the impossibly impossible act of shutting down all commerce without taking in the Mark of the beast. We are standing on the precipice watching crypto currencies and RFID about to end all commerce in cash taking the prophesies out of the realm of fantasy into possibility and probability.

The diety of Christ is clear to me now, the abhorrent results of crime and punishment, and for people who have never heard of Christianity; I have hope / faith that God is both Just and merciful and everyone will get the appropriate reward or punishment at judgement day.

This blog entry is aimed at showing a macro look at biblical history. Clearly showing a pattern that he’s not a respector of persons destroying everyone whose ability to choose was completely prevented by their society falling away. In that sense many people who may not have ever heard of The True God were killed.

And the truth of the biblical prophesies in revelation? Look at current events. It’s scary as hell.

My application of moral judgements against God are pointless. He’s God I’m not, and shits about to hit the fan. It’s time for everyone to get right with God not the other way around.

https://steemit.com/israel/@adconner/the-temple-mount-and-raising-the-antichrist

I am a libertarian because I believe in absolute morality. Respect for other people’s lives, property and treasure without exception.

God is too. He’s given us a choice. Him or hell. But again hell isnt the punishment it’s the result of justice. Is it too much or too little? I have faith in God’s mercy.

Definition of faith? Hope confirmed by the spirit and random moments in my life that happen and confirm something new that I’ve recently learned.

Point me to the things I’ve cut out of the Gospels that you think i need to learn or be reminded of. Thanks in Advance.

Well, I don't feel like you've thought through your position very well. What is punishment? What is justice? Is there a point to the never ending torture? Does sin ever actually get dealt with?

Discipline is something that is meant to encourage growth, punishment is punitive. I don't see how you could possibly say that God has respect for people's lives if you think He will keep them alive forever for the sole purpose of torturing them... Honestly, that baffles me. Most "Christians" will at least try to explain how it is just in some sense, but you don't seem inclined to even ponder it.

If you believe in absolute morality, then is torture wrong? If so, why?

You say God gave us a choice, heaven or hell... Is that in the Bible? Where? Every verse I can find says the choice is life or death.

john 3:16, Romans 6:20-23, Deut 30:19, John 10:10, 2 Peter 3:9, Ezek 18:4, 2 Thes 1:8-9, Gen 2:17, Deut 4:1, Jer 21:8, prov 11:19, Matt 25:46, Romans 5:12, James 1:5, psalm 1:6, 9:5, 11:6, This could take all day...

God doesn’t have respect for people’s lives. He’s not a respector of persons if I ever said he was, was missing the word ‘Not’.

Jesus Christ is not a respecter of persons. He came to save souls not lives. He came to satisfy the law of justice. To be the last sacrifice as payment for our sins.

Discipline will be handed out in this life to his faithful. (Hebrews 12:6-7)

God is not going to torture anyone. This situation we put ourselves into. Analogy: you are about to fall into a volcano which won’t kill you. It will torture you for eternity but Jesus offers you his hand to pull you to safety but you refuse his hand because your principles tell you the whole paradigm is flawed.

As far as people who never heard of the one True God? We need to bring them the gospel. But died in the past never having had a choice? The blame is their ancestors not theirs and I have faith in God’s mercy to do the right thing.

I’ll read those scriptures you suggested. Thanks.

I don't know if I'd say you left anything out of the gospel. I didn't see this post as a presentation of the gospel... Was it? If so, I'd say you left out all the stuff Jesus and Paul said about the Kingdom, which was Jesus' number one message. I'd also say that nobody in the bible ever preached the gospel you just did, which is basically a watered down version of "sinners in the hands of an angry God," a gospel of coercion. Obey or be tortured forever...

Thanks for your definition of faith. It really does put some of this discussion into context for me. So we're on a level playing field, I think faith is trusting enough to act in spite of doubt. It seems to me that you're operating on a faith that is mostly evidence based, or built on surety, where I view faith as having doubt, but believing Jesus enough to trust Him and do what He said. For me, without actually doing anything that He said you can't have faith.

For an example, you can believe that your wife would never cheat on you, but it's not faith until you trust her in difficult situations. Or, you can believe the bungee chord will not break, but it's not faith until you jump.

I have faith first make the leap and if it’s correctly placed it’s confirmed by random circumstance.

My faith in The fidelity of my wife is confirmed by passing the difficult situations. My faith is confirmed by the chord not breaking.

Faith should always be confirmed. Preach what you learned and God will confirm but if I teach lies I’ll be disciplined. So please let me know if I’ve presented any falsehoods I will pray on the matter.

You do have a point about the Angry God Sermon. This blog entry needed a better intro. This conversation has resulted in adding an intro.

Thanks!

Wow! This is enlightening. Do you really mean to say that God doesn't respect human life? Is that based off Acts 10:34? Because, if so I think you are taking that entirely out of context. The actual context is Peter explaining how God values all human life equally. The KJV is old English, and people don't talk that way anymore. Modern versions read:

NIV: Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

ESV: So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,

NASB: Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,

If you really don't think God respects human life, then why the commandment forbidding murder? What's the big deal?

And Jesus... Really? Do you actually rip the middle part of the gospels out of your bible? What about what He said?

John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Never mind that Jesus' number one message was the "Kingdom of God" which He said was "at hand" and "upon you." Why did He even preach the sermon on the mount? It would be easier to get people to heaven if people went around forcing conversions, then killing the converted. There's no reason to keep them alive, right? Why try to stop abortion? The babies are probably going to heaven, right? So why not fill the place with babies?

How can you say with a straight face that your conception of Hell isn't God torturing people? Your analogy sucks because people don't live forever, unless God decides that they will. It says that in the bible a whole bunch, so I guess take that up with God. Jesus Himself said that God had the power to destroy the soul:

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Nevermind for now that the verse clearly teaches that the soul is destroyed in hell, but think for a second... If God can destroy the soul, but chooses not to so that a person can be in eternal torment... How is God not torturing them? That makes no sense at all...

Let's re-frame your analogy. It seems to me it's more like this: you are about to fall into a hole that leads to a torture chamber. I tell you to take my hand so that you don't fall into the torture chamber, but you don't believe me. You fall, and I torture you.

I'm glad you can somehow have faith that God will be merciful considering your conception of Him. Keep that thread alive. Just FYI, if the Bible doesn't teach what you are saying that it does, you really ought to reconsider your position.

The History of God destroying whole civilizations from time to time shows his level of respect for human lives. Does it not?

Any more comments on faith confirmed?

The great examples of faith in the bible don't lead me to agree with your definition.
Did Moses have faith? He never reached the promised land.

Did Abraham see his decedents number as the stars?

How about Abel? Was his faith confirmed by being murdered?

From Hebrews 11, the "Hall of Faith"

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

The faith is supposed to be that in the end, at the resurrection, God will vindicate the righteous. It's not to be expected here. If you get "confirmation" and it helps you, that's great, but it doesn't always work like that.

I truly hope for your sake that you keep getting those confirmations. The world is a dark place when you don't.

Well, there's the flood. But if you take that as literal, you got to take the statements that the "whole earth was corrupt" and that "every intention of man was only evil, continually" seriously. The rest of the civilizations were actually destroyed by other agents. Nations, Angels, The Destroyer... But yeah, that's still a problem.

The question is, what is God like? Is God like the OT diety that kills people, or is God like Jesus, who said to pray for your enemies, forgive 70 times 70, bless those who curse you, turn the other cheek... He also said that if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father.

The way I take it is that the Old Testament prophets were only able to give us glimpses of God. They weren't able to give us the full revelation of His character, but Jesus did. Hebrews 1 says that Jesus is the "radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being." Exact. That means that God's character is exactly like Jesus'.

Even if you want to stick to the guns and say that God killed all those people, you still don't have eternal torment. You have at best an ending of life, with still the resurrection in the future to set things right. There's no torture, and there's always a purpose.

Luckily I was born when I did. To be able to apply the signs of the impending rapture to current events then researching it and finding a whole group of people preaching the same to confirm my belief.

Otherwise I’d still be unsaved because of my concerns with the appropriateness of God’s judgements.

https://youtu.be/tveucydvu-U

I think the intro is a good addition. I still think you have a pretty nasty view of God, but at least you're upfront about it.

I'd still like to hear you answer the question how it's not torture if God is the one keeping the souls alive forever in Hell. I think we both agree that life is a gift of God, right? And that life only continues because God wills it? (Again, from Hebrews 1 among other verses)

Yeah, well you lost me on this one. I don't buy into the "rapture" thing at all. I think it's basically divination. Using the bible as a crystal ball. If it works for you, then congratulations. I just see it as yet another example in a 2000 year history of people misreading the book of Revelation to say the "end times" are imminent. Historically, they have all been wrong, and in all probability so are you today.

I'm much more interested in the slander of the character of God that is the Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell doctrine.

And for the record, finding other people who agree with you is no way to determine truth. You could say the same exact thing for preterism, amillenialism, Pre-wrath, pre-trip, Hindus, Muslims, Bhuddists, Sikh, etc. Lots of people have crazy beliefs. Finding that there are others like you is not confirmation of anything except maybe that you have been influenced by huge advertising campaigns from book publishers, movie producers, and megachurch pastors who all make millions off the "rapture."

Absolutely what you mention are are real concerns about the way faith can be confirmed and consensus in an if itself is not complete confirmation.

As I said before.... the invention of cryptos and rfids takes the prophesy of stopping all commerce without the mark of beast out of the realm of fiction into the realm of possibility and probability.

Likewise the creation of the modern state of Israel and their plans to rebuild the temple are a confirmation that we are on the time line heading to the rapture.

This pastor really brings the Book of Revelation to life.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4oPLNtP6_ec2ac_ZsujgtcjoPNBwVFET

I wish you would have led with the direct allegation that I was slandering God by claiming he will torture souls for eternity. But thanks for bringing that up.

It’s based on my belief the soul is eternal and the second death doesn’t result in the actual extinction of the accumulated intelligence of the soul. Is he keeping the intelligence alive to be tortured? No. It’s dead in the sense of being exiled from God but still aware of their fates.

It sounds like you’re suggesting God will euthanize those souls who don’t commit to him? If so, any scripture on that?

Again, I'm not really interested in the "rapture" idea. I think it's escapism.

I'm sorry if you think I wasn't being straight forward with you about slandering God's character. I thought I was. I said your view was that God tortured people for eternity like a dozen times... I didn't know there was an exact phrase I was supposed to use.

Seriously? I have to find a scripture that defines death as death? No, I don't think so. The straight forward reading of the passages is death.

To quote Edward Fudge, "what does death mean? Death. What does death mean? Death. What does death mean? Death."

The wages of sin is death. the gift of God is eternal life. What does death mean? Death.

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. What does death mean? Death.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. What does perish mean? Perish.

The onus is on you to find scripture that defined death as something other than death. Think it through, man.

1. God is our only father in the sense that he’s the creator of the universe and everything in it. For a simple analogy of George Washington being the Father of the US. Not literally any of ours father. Except Got Begat Jesus Christ in the Flesh.

2. There is more than one death. The Bible speaks of the second death therefore the first one wasn’t really death. Therefore we have multiple meanings of death.

3. But You’re making an assertion that God won’t torture an errant soul for eternity; that he will eventually euthanize it out of existence.... Is that not an accurate understanding of your opinion? If so any scripture in that?

1. Your analogy fails on multiple levels. First, George Washington didn't actually create people. He was instrumental in starting a nation, true, but the Bible says God created us. It also says that God keeps everything in existence by the will of His power. Heb 1:3, Col 1:17 It would be better if you used the analogy Jesus used, it's called the Prodigal son. Luke 15:11-32. What does the parable tell us about God?

2. The Bible says it is appointed for man to die, then face judgment. Hebrews 9:27. Jesus said there will be a resurrection of all people,

John 5:28-29. 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."
This is the second death. Or, what you are calling euthanasia.

Reiterated in Acts 24:15

and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

There is nothing in there that suggests anything besides death. You using the term Euthanasia doesn't redefine the passage. What does death mean? Death.

1. I gave you many bible verses that say that in the end the "wicked" will be destroyed, killed, etc. Did you even look at any of them?

What about John 3:16? Romans 6:23? I've posted them several times and you haven't responded to them. I know you know them, they are literally the most famous verses in the whole bible. What more do I need to do? Must I find the term Euthanasia in the Bible? That's preposterous!

ALL of the verses I posted say that God will destroy the wicked. You have posted ZERO scripture to back up your claims... Care to explain why?

Here is the back up better than anything I could write.

“Jesus plainly sets this forth in His message on the sheep and goats: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matt. 25:46; italics added). The punishment of the lost in hell is coextensive to the bliss of the righteous in heaven—both are everlasting.”

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/annihilation-or-eternal-punishment/

Either way this conversation is moot. Whether souls be Annihilated or into Eternal Punishment; makes no difference to me. I want no part of either. I choose the Hand of Christ rather than disappoint my God.

But thank you for bringing me to the debate of Eternal Torture in Hell vs the Annihilation of the souls which I was calling euthanasia. In the end though it’s not Pertinent to the purpose of the blog entry so I edited it again to leave the question open.

Check out the Rapture in 2nd Thessalonians. 1:9-10 it’s the rapture.

Ligonier? So you're a reformed guy? That explains a lot.

So now I must refute a professional theologian, and I'm just some guy. However, I will try to do it, as opposed to what you are doing, which is passing the buck to someone else to do your thinking for you.

I will answer each of these arguments in turn. First is the argument from hellfire. Many passages use this language without interpreting it. It is possible, therefore, to read various views into such passages, including annihilationism. However, we do not want to read our ideas into the Bible, but to get our ideas from the Bible. And when we do, we find that some passages preclude an annihilationist understanding of hellfire. These include Jesus’s description of hell in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as a “place of torment” (Luke 16:28) involving “anguish in this flame” (v. 24).

It's good that the author here recognizes that this is a parable. I agree, and think we should all be grateful. Consider the idea that you are in heaven and can see and hear the dead in hell being tormented forever, while they cry out to you for relief. Now imagine that your son is down there. Maybe your mother was never really saved in life, and now you live in heaven listening to her for eternity crying out in agony for relief. Sound like heaven?

The idea that taking the description of the afterlife in this parable as literal is rediculous. The parable has a main point, which is to demonstrate that the commonly held idea that the rich are blessed by God, and righteous, while the poor are cursed by God and thus sinners, is a faulty idea. We don't take the elements of the parable of the sower literal. We don't take the parable of the mustard seed literal. The only reason to take this as literal is to support an otherwise Biblical unsupportable doctrine.

When the last book of the Bible describes the flames of hell, it does not speak of consumption but says the lost “will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night” (Rev. 14:10–11).

Again, this is from a book that explicitly states it is recording a prophetic vision. What you take literally says more about you than about the afterlife. Read the entire chapter and tell me what parts you take literally and why.

Also, the verse doesn't say they will be tormented forever, just that the smoke goes up forever. This is clearly a reference to Isiah 34:9-10: "Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever." Now, is Edom still burning?

Second is the argument from passages that speak of destruction or perishing. Once again, when Scripture merely uses these words without interpreting them, many views may be read into them. But once again, we want to read out of Scripture its meaning. And some passages are impossible to reconcile with annihilationism. Paul describes the fate of the lost as suffering “the punishment of eternal destruction” (2 Thess. 1:8). Also telling is the fate of the Beast in Revelation. “Destruction” is prophesied for him in 17:8, 11. The Beast (along with the False Prophet) is cast into “the lake of fire that burns with sulfur” (19:20). Scripture is unambiguous when it describes the fate of the devil, Beast, and False Prophet in the lake of fire: “They will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (20:10). So, the Beast’s “destruction” is everlasting torment in the lake of fire.

Read the relevent passages. Revelation 20:10 does not say "destruction." Perhaps if you want to take that one passage literally you have God torturing the devil, the beast, and the false prophet forever, but that's it. The author seems to be trying to get people to not look at the passages by stating what they say, then misrepresenting them. Look at them yourself. But again, when else do theologians take stuff from Revelation and use it to build doctrine? Never. The book is notoriously difficult to interpret and openly symbolic.

Third is the argument from the word eternal. In hell passages, it is claimed, eternal means only pertaining to “the age to come” and not “everlasting.” It is true that in the New Testament, eternal means “agelong,” with the context defining the age. And in texts treating eternal destinies, eternal does refer to the age to come. But the age to come lasts as long as the life of the eternal God Himself. Because He is eternal—He “lives forever and ever” (Rev. 4:9, 10; 10:6; 15:7)—so is the age to come. Jesus plainly sets this forth in His message on the sheep and goats: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matt. 25:46; italics added). The punishment of the lost in hell is coextensive to the bliss of the righteous in heaven—both are everlasting.

This is just a misunderstanding of the conditionalis argument. Eternal means that it lasts forever. If something is destroyed, then it is gone forever. Hence, eternal destruction is a destruction that lasts forever. If the torment goes on and on, then it is never over and cannot be eternal because there is always future torment.

Fourth is the argument that it is unjust of God to punish sinners eternally for temporal sins. It strikes me as presumptuous for human beings to tell God what is just and unjust. We would do better to determine from His Holy Word what He deems just and unjust.

I've already addressed this.

Jesus leaves no doubt. He will say to the saved, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Matt. 25:34). He will say to the lost, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (v. 41). We have already seen John define that fire as eternal conscious punishment in the lake of fire for the devil (Rev. 20:10). A few verses later, we read that unsaved human beings share the same fate (vv. 14–15). Evidently, God thinks it just to punish human beings who rebel against Him and His holiness with everlasting hell. Is it really our place to call this unjust?

Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, "which is the second death." Second death... I've already addressed this.

I'm stopping there because it doesn't seem that the author makes any new arguments. He doesn't address the hundreds of passages that state the fate of the wicked will be death, destruction, consumed, blown away like chaff, etc. The entire argument is based on one parable and a few verses from Revelation, which literally no two Christian denominations agree on the interpretation of.

Address the verses I posted. If not here, read them and ask God. Seriously, they speak for themselves. If you honestly can't see a hermeneutic problem with using two passages of scripture that almost nobody denies are figurative and symbolic as the basis for your belief, while simultaneously disregarding non-symbolic and straightforward statements from Genesis through the Epistles, and straight from the mouth of Jesus Himself, then I guess I don't know what else to say.

Try reading something that isn't supportive of the view and see how the argument stacks up. I'd recommend "The Fire That Consumes," but for a primer you could poke around on the "rethinking hell" blog. I only say this because it doesn't seem to me you have a strong basis for your belief since you can't defend it on your own.

Oh, I think it's pertinent. That's why I commented. You blog is a fear tactic, and that's not something I think Jesus would do, nor should His followers.

Again, I've studied prophecy until my eyes bled... (That's figurative) I disagree with the interpretation you are working with, and I understand it very well. I'm not interested in it. I think it's pointless and counterproductive. I don't think Jesus came just to save our souls, I think He came to teach us how to live as well. It's important how we live, and the rapture doctrine gives people excuses to not follow Jesus' commands because, after all, we're not going to be here for much longer, right? I also think it's unwise to assume that Christians won't be around for tribulation. Seriously, don't you think the Christians living in Syria think they're seeing Great Tribulation? How about the Armenian Genocide? Diocletian persecution?

Yes Christians around the world are experiencing tribulations and their faith is being proven. It’s a promise of being Christian.

The rapture is spelled out is many scriptures from Daniel to Thessolonians to great detail in revelations.

I agree that Christ came to teach us how to live but more importantly to pay for the right to wipe our slates clean at judgement day.

I’ve made some edits to the post thanks to you but yes it’s most definitely aimed developing a healthy fear of God and the wrath he will pour out on the unsaved rebels at the rapture.

These warnings are spelled out in the Bible are real and your attitude gives people a false sense of immunity.

I’ve also added these edits to the blog post because I do not have a clear understanding of what the Bible says about eternal torture or annihilation.

But if you would care to present a summary of what you believe will be the final result for the unsaved and why it matters other than solely if it’s different than the alleged slander of God.

I’ve read that some people believe that all souls made in Gods image will eventually be purified and accepted into heaven; is that what you believe too?

Edits to Blog Entry:
1. Either way this question is moot for the purposes of this blog entry; Whether souls be Annihilated or into Eternal Punishment; makes no difference to me. I want no part of either. I choose the Hand of Christ rather than disappoint my God.

2.	God is Enlightenment and existence is hell without his light. He doesn’t want slavery so gave us Free Will. Some might suggest that this choice is under duress but he’s not here with a gun at our heads. We choose by faith. To follow Lucifer and the immediate gratification he provides and with it the second death or we choose God, temporary suffering but an eternity of joy in heaven. Either choice is not without Just rewards making each a valid contract.

I’ll read the Book The Fire that Consumes. But you should check out the YouTube series presented by Steven Anderson about The Book of Revelation. It’s eye opening and is why I’m even a Christian today. It spoke to me; nothing is going to take away the peace I feel knowing Christ has saved me. My kids are lost in atheism because I didn’t find the truth of God and being saved by His grace, not by being Good by accepting his sacrifice - until too late to teach them early of the Good News spread by the early Apostles across the world.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4oPLNtP6_ec2ac_ZsujgtcjoPNBwVFET

So no, being in heaven listening to the screams of the damned including my kids cannot be heaven yet I cannot see any other option based on what I’ve read... Even knowing they’ve been annhilated would not sit well with me either. But is there an alternate end I haven’t read about in the Bible?

Again, I'm not interested in discussing the Rapture. If you cared to look you would see that all the passages you use to support your view have plausible alternate interpretations. Personally, I think the entire exercise is counterproductive as I believe I stated before.

I agree that Christ came to teach us how to live but more importantly to pay for the right to wipe our slates clean at judgement day.

Okay. I don't think I have a big problem with that. I wouldn't place the emphasis on the afterlife, but whatever.

I’ve made some edits to the post thanks to you but yes it’s most definitely aimed developing a healthy fear of God and the wrath he will pour out on the unsaved rebels at the rapture.

Well, I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. I don't think it's healthy to think God will torture people in Hell forever. Most of us know people who aren't Christian, and that kind of believe breeds resentment, even if people don't want to admit it. Fear is coercion as any good Libertarian should know, and it's morally wrong to use coercion.

These warnings are spelled out in the Bible are real and your attitude gives people a false sense of immunity.

I don't see how. Does the idea of being resurrected to stand in front of your Creator for Judgement sound pleasant to you? There's plenty of room for punishment without the need for eternal torture.

I’ve also added these edits to the blog post because I do not have a clear understanding of what the Bible says about eternal torture or annihilation.

Read "The Fire that Consumes." Or, for a more balanced approach, read "Two Views of Hell A Biblical and Theological Dialogue" Fudge and Peterson. PM me if you want, I'll send it to you in the mail.

But if you would care to present a summary of what you believe will be the final result for the unsaved and why it matters other than solely if it’s different than the alleged slander of God.

It doesn't really matter what I believe. I can tell you what I think the bible teaches, though. I think it teaches pretty clearly that a: the wages of sin is Death, b: the gift of God is eternal life, c: whoever believes in Jesus will not perish but will be given eternal life, d: the end of the wicked will be eternal destruction. All of those are direct quotes from the Bible.

I think there's plenty of room for varying degrees of punishment and varying duration of torment if that is what God wants, but I don't see that spelled out in the Bible.

I believe it matters because 1: if you say that you are teaching what God said then it is important to accurately represent what God said. 2: it is a slander on God's character, and millions of people around the world agree, which leads to 3: it is a hindrance to people accepting the Gospel. This wouldn't be a concern if Eternal torture were actually what the bible taught, but if it's not then people like you are unnecessarily turning people away from God by your description of His character that millions of people find repulsive.

I’ve read that some people believe that all souls made in Gods image will eventually be purified and accepted into heaven; is that what you believe too?

I certainly hope so, but I don't think that's what the Bible teaches. It's another discussion but there are quite a few biblical reasons for thinking this, so I hold out hope. In fact, it's a much stronger case that the case for eternal torture.

I have a question for you about the article you posted. Do you know what LIgonier ministries is? Because you say that people have free will, but Ligonier teaches that, and I quote, "God foreordains whatsoever comes to pass." They literally believe that God predestines some people from the beginning of creation to spend eternity in Hell. They do not believe people have free will, but rather that people are predestined as either elect or damned from before they are even born. How great does that God sound?

I’m not a follower of any particular ministry. Anderson’s or Ligoners. The issues (proofs) he presents about eternal damnation is pretty widely accepted by Christianity but not his views on predestination. That’s a farce.

Anderson has a video on the eternal punishment in Hell that uses the same scriptures Ligoner uses but doesn’t teach anything supporting predestination. He also preaches a lot of hate messages and a reprobate doctrine I disagree with as well.

For me the concept that everyone will be proven and eventually saved sits well with me so does the Mormon doctrine of baptisms for the dead but they’ve got some crazy other stuff that’s simply heresy.

What worked for me to see the light is Anderson’s videos on the Post Trib Rapture. Scared me into a voluntary relationship with God. So that’s where I’m at.

I'm glad to hear that Steven Anderson was able to help you know the Lord, but I've seen his stuff, and I think he's got some pretty wrong headed ways of reading the Bible. I may be thinking of the wrong guy, but isn't he the one that stands at the pulpit proclaiming how happy he is that gay people will be tortured in Hell? There's a place to be grateful for someone for leading you to Christ, but there's also a time to move on... I'm not saying it's that time for you, but for me, I can't listen to him.

If your kids are still alive it's not too late. Nothing preaches the gospel like a transformed life. Love them, and let them see you love others. Love is attractive, and look what it did for Jesus' ministry. Don't give up.

I actually think the case for Universal Restoration is pretty convincing, but personally I don't see it as convincing as Conditional Immortality. (AKA annihiliationism) My personal favorite presenters of the view are Peter Hiett and Brian Zandh. There are others, but I like that they really make arguments from the Bible as a priority. I hope their right. If you have the time, check out some of their stuff, it's easily found online.

The main argument is that the Bible teaches that Jesus will reconcile all creation to Himself in the end. As in Adam all have sinned, so in Christ all will be made alive. There's more, but it's my bedtime so I'll leave it there for now.

Thanks for the dialog brother. Sorry if I came across as hostile at times, I can get over exuberant.

Good Night. Yes Anderson is known for hate preaching but I ignore that. I don’t watch his sermons but I like his mini vlogs on specific topics he presents. Like cross examining dispensationaliam, Calvinism, and his post trib prewrath interpretation of The Book of Revelation is as I’ve said. Eye Opening.

Just getting into this book. Excellent question going to be answered? “This danger is ever-present regarding any subject, but it hovers over a study of hell like some bird of prey. “How will this view affect evangelism?” people may ask. “Which view of hell most motivates sinners to repent?”23”

Excerpt From
The Fire That Consumes
Edward William Fudge
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the-fire-that-consumes/id917404231?mt=11
This material may be protected by copyright.

There's a lot there. It may not convince you, but you shouldn't have any questions about the position after reading it.

In the end, you have to make up your own mind based on what you think the Bible teaches, he just helps you see things that would otherwise be hard to see.

glad you're reading it, and I hope you enjoy it.

https://youtu.be/ilrF-3J0uIQ

It’s. Not an enjoyable book to read. Too many “Proofs” but that’s what it’s all about. What is the truth there are many perceptions. I never before realized that the immortal nature of souls came from the pagans but still I don’t discount it because I believe the pagans ancestors were descendants of Adam just like everyone else so some pagan rituals are mongrolized rituals of the original form of worshiping God.

Anyway the concept of the annihilation of unrepentant souls is more comforting than eternal Torture.

Yes, it certainly is.